Nato members have pledged their support for an “irreversible path” to future membership for Ukraine, as well as more aid.
While a formal timeline for it to join the military alliance was not agreed at a summit in Washington DC, the military alliance’s 32 members said they had “unwavering” support for Ukraine’s war effort.
Nato has also announced further integration with Ukraine’s military and members have committed €40bn ($43.3bn, £33.7bn) in aid in the next year, including F-16 fighter jets and air defence support.
The bloc’s Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said: “Support to Ukraine is not charity - it is in our own security interest.”
I wonder why most neighbours of Russia want to join NATO. Being an aggressive neighbour is the only reason. Russia wants to control their neighbours.
Tankies in shambles.
Tankies are never in shambles. If Ukraine doesn’t join NATO they’ll say “See, NATO was just using Ukraine” and if Ukraine joins NATO they’ll say “See, NATO is expanding east again”. Tankies are never wrong when it comes to believing their own delusions.
Sounds like a cult that would follow a racist rapist with 34 felonies.
Nah, their preferred leaders typically have the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people on their conscience.
You’re in luck! The racist rapist with 34 felonies is on record saying he would finish the genocide FASTER. Ya’ll like that right?
I mean, I’ve seen tankies spin anything to fit their narrative, I’m sure they’ll continue to do so. Remember, anything resembling support of Ukraine is an act of aggression against Russia, and tantamount to unilaterally starting WWIII.
Tankies in disarray!
I just have to wonder what the state of the NATO coalition is going to be if Trump takes office a second time.
Probably dented for quite a while but Europe is already in the process of re-arming and there are no existential threats that could prevent it buffalo buffalo buffalo from doing so. Russia can’t take all of the EU or European NATO countries at once and Chinas military and navy aren’t set up with long distance power projection in mind. The only exception would be the US itself if they really went off the deep end on a second Trump term.
Europe is already in the process of re-arming
They’re in the process of shoveling fortunes into a ravenous private sector arms industry.
Russia can’t take all of the EU or European NATO countries at once
None of these countries want a repeat of WW2. Quite a few have large right wing nationalist blocks sympathetic to Putin’s United Russia white nationalist model.
This won’t be a fight between Russia and the EU. It will be a war of economic attrition that favors the international arms industry and cripples the domestic service sector, to the outrage of domestic people.
Zbigniew Brzezinski is disappointed with you.
My God, it’s like the 80s took a shit
Tankies have blood shooting out their penises
Starting to notice a lot of Tankies jumping to .world because they let .ml slide enough that enough of us ban .ml users on sight
edit: Site to Sight.
Never knew this was a thing. I just choose a random instance when I joined Lemmy.
Got banned recently for being critical about “Apple & China relationship” and sourced a few articles in privacy channel or whatever its called.
I didn’t know why I was banned because according to their rules and didn’t break any rules, so I messaged a few mods for a response.
This sentiment makes me sad.
I chose .ml because it was smaller than .world (and that seemed to be the point of federation) but was also generic (my interests are very varied) and had great uptime, and didn’t de-federate or had been de-federated by many instances. Now people say stuff like this and I feel the need to change instances because I don’t want people to tar me with that brush (and I have been accused directly multiple times just because of my instances) but I feel conflicted because the whole point of this while thing was that we could be on any instance we liked and it shouldn’t impact our “social standing”. I’m disappointed in people that they can’t judge a person by the content of their character rather than the instance they are on. And alas - I feel it’s only a matter of time before I’m forced to change instance because of other people’s prejudice.
Eh, they use .ml to mean marxist-leninist. I have an inkling feeling you too would be wary if you saw a comment by “user@lemmy.nazi”.
judge a person by the content of their character
forced to change instance because of other people’s prejudice.
Sorry if I’m getting the wrong impression here, but the moderators with whom you choose to associate is pretty easy to change and not a part of who you are.
This sentiment is exactly what I’m talking about.
I’m not associated with the moderators anymore than your average user of .world is associated with their’s.
My point is, yes I can choose to change instance but why should I? Lemmy is meant to embody the best of us - and yet some of us are creating “us and them” situations.
I mean, we are.
Why would you join an instance where the mods don’t align with your own preferences in terms of moderation?
If there were an instance where the mods were open nazis and banned any pro-LGBT posts, me being on that instance at the very least means I have no problem having to maintain that standard of conduct, if I don’t actively co-sign it.
Having one or two mods who are cunts is one thing, having a whole mod/admin team with an explicit political agenda and line to toe is not the same.
And you’re associated with the mods in the same way that you’re associated with the government representatives of your nation. And I can tell you from experience that even though I don’t know the president or any of the representatives, I still get shit from people in other countries for the shit they do.
Yeah, it sucks that you’re getting guilty by association, but that’s just a base human trait and naivety about how humans behave won’t change the fact that this shit is going to be part of any human-based micro-culture. The nice part about online communities, though, is it doesn’t cost you your life savings to up and move to a more palatable location.
That’s the whole difference, though. I wouldn’t make the same claim about moving to another country, for which switching costs are astronomical.
Communities on .ml are moderated in a way that pisses people off, especially in regard to politics.
People that judge someone with an .ml name on an different instance and a different community are acting like clowns. They’re just being lazy and/or prejudicial.
Don’t worry too much about it; downvote and move on.
My advice would be to just ignore people like that who rush to name calling without contributing anything to the discussion.
Just another asshole on the internet…Oh look, another .marxist-lennonist who served themselves up to my blocklist =D
“Anyone who dares to say anything that disagrees with the official western line is a tankie” - you, basically. Anyway, all anyone has to do is look at the upvotes and downvotes to see who really is flooding .world and it’s not the tankies like you claim with your victim complex post.
“Anyone who dares to say anything that disagrees with the official western line is a tankie” -
More like ‘anyone with a comment history rabidly defending the acts of nations like Russia and China because anti-US’. You know, like your comment history.
You lot have been popping up here more and more as your havens get banned by people. But at least we can still block you directly.
“Rabidly defending” in this case being me simply stating that there is more to the situation than what the official western propaganda states and then having dozens of people like you jumping down my throat with angry replies and downvotes. My mistake for taking the time to respond to these people, thus giving me this “comment history”. Russia is obviously in the wrong for invading Ukraine, but we need to examine why it did it so we can prevent something like that from happening in the future. Apparently there is no room for nuance for people like you, it’s just good guys vs bad guys and you’re obviously always the good guy.
Speaking of havens, it’s also people like you who shriek endlessly about the need to eradicate all “tankies” as you march towards your goal of turning the fediverse into reddit 2.0. Go ahead and block me, you obviously can’t stand to see an opinion that doesn’t totally agree with your own.
Anyone who has experienced the horrors of the USSR or Russia knows appeasing them or sympathetic to nonsense like “why they invaded” as if their reason was anything beyond narcissistic theft, murder, and imperialism is either ignorant or malicious.
Please look into Soviet history, its involvement in genocide, its displacement of people, its alignment with the Nazis at the beginning of WW2, its subjevation and murder of millions of central and Eastern European countries. Normal decent people do not defend Russia.
You could make the same argument with the US yet you think they had nothing to do with the situation because…?
Please don’t ban me… I joined .ml because it was privacy, security and FOSS focused! I had no idea about the ancillary political focus now associated with it.
Yeah, its a large instance, and you need some inside knowledge to know about the political leanings.
Fun fact, they chose .ml to abbreviate marxist-leninist
1: I’m just a user, if its just me blocking you, it’s likely not going to impact your lemmy experience much
2: While the .ml tag means I instantly am wary/distrust you, the autoblock happens when you try and justify anything Russia and China has done.
Maybe Ukraine deserved to be invaded? Block
Countries surrounding Russia lining up to join Nato is a sign of expanding US Hegemony? Block
Isreali citizens deserved to be gunned down and r***** because they are settlers and not human? You better believe thats an autoblock
(China’s not currently on this example list because they havent done anything in the last few months. I guess you could replace Ukraine for Taiwan in the first example)
(But really, if you are still in .ml and not a Tankie, you should move instances, that instance is too far gone for it to recover)
edit: And before one of you fucknuts “WHATABOUT GAZA” 's me, yeah FUCK the GOVERNMENT of Isreal for what they are doing to Gaza currently, two warcrimes dont make a right
The mind of the tankie cannot comprehend such logical consistency
Mention Gaza? Block. Straight to block.
Take too long to denounce Russia? Block.
Denounce Russia too fast? Believe it or not, block. Straight to block.
We have the best echo chamber in the world, because of block.
I’m joking, obviously. Putin can die in a fire, and I want him to live long enough to suffer from it first. I just ALSO have no faith in the West to be much better. Seems like around here if you’re not firmly in one camp, you must be in the other.
Look man, North America sucks, but I’d rather have the States as a Superpower than Russia or China. So if you’re gonna suck those two off by defending the invasion of Ukraine or suggesting Taiwan should merge back with China, I dont have time for that. And for the Gaza thing? I dont particularly value the opinions of those who relish the thought of dehumanizing a population, The Isreal/Gaza situation is a horrific generational clusterfuck and both Hamas and the Israeli Government can go fuck theirselves, a terrorist attack, while “understandable” is never something to celebrate, and what the Isreali Government is using that as an excuse to do is abhorrent.
Edit: (Trump getting in again would definitely fuck with whether or not I’d prefer the States being the Superpower tho, although I’m not sure yet how that’d change the rankings)
Countries surrounding Russia lining up to join Nato is a sign of expanding US Hegemony? Block
But… it is, isn’t it?
Go ahead and block if you want. The important thing is that you don’t encounter any ideas that make you uncomfortable.
I wonder why its specifically the Countries surrounding Russia. You arent adding anything to my worldview with braindead takes like yours
I wonder why its specifically the Countries surrounding Russia.
Any countries joining Nato would be a sign of growing US hegemony, not just the countries around Russia.
I joined .ml because it was privacy, security and FOSS focused!
Sort of the joke in all this. The .ml users are “raiding” the sub because they like the advanced feature set.
I chose whatever I am because it was the first one I saw when I made the jump
I’m not saying all world members are Tankies, I’m just saying that I’m seeing a whole lot more Russian apologia coming from .world users (China hasnt done something fucked in the news recently aside from that fuel/food thing that hit front page today) than I used to. Which is a similar pattern that I saw with .ml once most of us wised up to banning the fuck out of hexbear
The difference is that .world admins will ban those people if they break the rules, while .ml ones will ban those who report them.
Hip hip hooray!
I thought they denied membership to Ukraine for being too corrupt
I don’t think the decision was ever on the table. But corruption is present in all countries, including the NATO members, so that’d be a bit hypocritical, especially now considering they’re fighting for freedom and democracy. Supposedly what the alliance exists for.
for freedom and democracy. Supposedly what the alliance exists for.
What? It’s been founded by a bunch of colonial nations (not ex-colonial at that point) still from time to time fighting colonial wars with war crimes and such. It has Turkey of all genocidal bastards as an important member.
The only reason for its existence was accumulating power. Well, as with all alliances.
Of course, kinda motivated by USSR redesigning its ground forces for capturing large parts of the world after they’ve been nuked. I’m not joking, that’s the reason ex-Soviet militaries so terribly suck at actually fighting - they are sort of a different mechanism, more like huge mobile garrisons to deploy in wastelands. Their analog of western ground forces was, say, VDV in Russia ; which is why despite nominally having the narrow function of paradropped assault troops, they’ve been used for every kind of thing important.
But corruption is present in all countries, including the NATO members, so that’d be a bit hypocritical,
Yes, and also weird.
I don’t think the decision was ever on the table.
Yes, when after 2 years of war and hundreds of thousands dead they meet and sign something about “discussing help to Ukraine” in case fighting gets more intensive by not clear which criterion - it means Ukraine is not becoming a member.
About “irreversible path” - they’ve said such things about Georgia too. Ivanishvili’s party is not good, but there’s been plenty of time before they started acting like now.
That was something the current administration cracked down on. Plus with the war, there isn’t a lot of loose money floating around, but there’s lots being spent on military and infrastructure, so they’re making enough in legit business to not need to use corrupt means to get it. And a lot of the Russian oligarchy has left which was part of why they didn’t want them.
I’m not familiar with that so I looked it up and found this article:
- EXPLAINER: Ukraine not joining NATO so why does Putin worry? (apnews, Feb. 2022)
“Ukraine has long aspired to join NATO, but the alliance is not about to offer an invitation, due in part to Ukraine’s official corruption, shortcomings in its defense establishment, and its lack of control over its international borders.”
Maybe opinions have changed amongst NATO decision makers.
Just vague memories from a random on the web. But IIRC, they were not welcome in part because of corruption of the previous leader’s administration, and one of the first things Zalensky did was crack down on that.
and one of the first things Zalensky did was crack down on that.
Rather replace Russia-dependent corruption with more generalized corruption.
“I hope you know what you’re doing…”
No, there’s no possible way the NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, former Prime Minister of Norway, would know anything about European politics and military policy.
And there’s certainly no one he could consult on the matter.
Well then I guess there is nothing to worry about…
There’s lots of things to worry about. The Earth has gone above an average temperature of 1.5° C since the Industrial Revolution began. We’re running out of fresh water globally. PFAS is everywhere and microplastics are in every man’s testes.
And you’re worried about whether or not someone who likely knows a hell of a lot more than you do about international policy along with all of their expert advisors know what they’re doing.
I never said he didn’t. I just said I hope he does.
And then when I told you that he does, you responded with a sarcastic, “well then I guess there is nothing to worry about.”
And now here we are.
It’s amazing to see how down voted a contrary opinion can be in this subject.
It’s a little easier to understand if you reversed the situation.
How would the US react if the Russians supported Mexico in joining a military pact against the US, so that the Russians could build military bases and install short range nuclear weapons in Mexico and point then at the US? What would the reaction be if Russian then spent billions of dollars financing the Mexicans from any kind of military aggression from the US?
You can’t threaten someone with a gun and not expect them to eventually shoot you.
It doesn’t matter how anyone feels about my opinion but the more we posture with violence, lies on all sides, anger and an unwillingness to step back and find sensible solutions … the closer we get to nuclear war and the end of civilization.
As an American I think that would all be reasonable…if the official US position was that Mexico has no right to exist, the Mexican people should be forcibly integrated into our society as 2nd class citizens, and the US Army was in the process of a “peacekeeping operation” in Mexico to carry all this out.
For all our flaws, we respect the borders of our neighbors and don’t have irridentist aspirations that belong in the 19th century. Russia is the aggressor here, and they have demonstrated that they have little interest in global peace or human rights, only increasing their sphere of influence.
Continually rolling over for thugs because it’s what avoids nuclear conflict will only lead to a global order based on thuggery, and it likely won’t even avoid nuclear conflict in the end.
I’m no fan of Russia … I’m just stating my opinion because I don’t want to die in a nuclear holocaust because everyone didn’t want to see reason.
There’s only one country in modern history that has spread global influence and threats in every part of the world, imposed, threatened, created and caused violence everywhere for decades while imposing their financial, political and economic powers on everyone everywhere for all of modern history …
… and it isn’t the Russians.
Ah, There it is, the thing that you ultimately wanted to say but tried to be coy about.
“America bad”
And here I thought the topic at hand was Ukraine becoming a NATO member, not AmErIcAn ImPeRiAliSm
NATO is an arm of American imperialism so it’s relevant to the article and conversation at hand.
So if the US gets out of Nato like Trump promised, what then? It magically disolves because there are no sovereign countries in there? Or is it still an arm of american imperialism and all ze eviilz in the world?
It would definitely weaken a ton although I doubt it would immediately dissolve, although its power is heavily based on our leadership and military and anyone who doesn’t see that is pretty naive. Hopefully Europe would help Ukraine enough to make up for us having Trump and probably not helping them anymore, though.
That wasn’t my question.
Probably not helping them? You mean against a trump US joining the Russians. The dude really wants us on the evil side of WW3.
America bad is literally the reason why countries don’t want NATO on their border. You don’t get to ignore that key point and pretend OP was arguing in bad faith.
America invades countries to overthrow their government steal their natural resources. Lybia, Afghanistan, Iraq, even the Genocide in Gaza is made possible by NATO countries doing the weapons logistics.
And yet Russia has multiple borders with NATO countries. “Your opinion” is parroting kremlin propaganda about “the nuclear end” that “will totally happen you guys” and can be summarized by “let’s give Russia everything they want, because they have nukes so they can now rule everyone”
I really don’t care enough about Russia to defend their actions any further but if you look on a map you see Ukraine does not just encircle Russia but actually sticks inwards quite a bit.
And Russia did start getting more imperialist the closer NATO came.
Ah yes the closer NATO came, since before they had east Germany, Poland and other countries.
Dude. Think about what you are saying or read up more. You are repeating russian propaganda and nothing else. This is a land grab invasion. NATO doesn’t have shit to do with it otherwise Russia wouldn’t grab all their troops on NATO borders and move them to Ukraine. They know NATO isn’t an offensive alliance and are using that, then telling people like you bullshit about NATO encroachment, novorossia or other idiotic ramblings.
Cuba (country right next to the US) aligned itself with the USSR after Castro’s revolution, and the US has attempted to coup them, invade them, murder their leaders, then sink them in isolation and starvation. I’ve always defended that Cuba had the right of self-determination for their own foreign and domestic policy, and that the US was in the wrong for retaliating against them.
It would be extremely hypocritical of me to defend that Ukraine has no right to self-determine whether they want to be in a defensive pact or not, and whether they want to join the EU or not, just because a third country would like them not to do so - just as it’s extremely hypocritical of tankies and campists to say that Cuba had the right to choose their own future but Ukraine doesn’t.
Propaganda has been turned up to 11 to manufacture consent for this war, it’s no wonder people are so polarized about it.
…it is in our own security interest.
No one’s security interests are served by a new era of escalating tensions between Russia and the West. No country has more nuclear weapons than Russia. All efforts should be taken to prevent Russia from becoming desperate enough to use their nuclear weapons. By further isolating and encircling Russia, I think the chances of them using their nuclear weapons increases.
Ah yes, appeasement. A historically winning strategy.
Is instigating wars a winning strategy?
Russia should’ve thought about that before invading Ukraine, it seems.
Ok, you’re right, let’s give putain all the territories he wants.
I didn’t say that. I don’t think the options must necessarily be limited to either escalation or appeasement.
Ok, I’ll bite - how do you imagine that? It’s pretty much down to Ukraine and all othet countries laying down weapons if attacked or fighting back and defend their territory. Would love to hear what you imagine being the 3rd option
I think what really scares Russia isn’t Ukraine defending their territory, it’s Ukraine allying with the West. I think Russia sees all these countries joining NATO and it looks to them like their neighbors are joining their enemy, against them. I think that makes them nervous and afraid. I think the only solution is diplomacy.
We’ve tried this. Blair’s talks with Putin, Obama’s Russia Reset, energy cooperation in Europe, and that non aggression deal Russia signed with Ukraine.
Putin threw all of that away when he invaded Crimea and then Ukraine.
True peace in the region will be achieved by Putin being removed from power by the Russian people, ending the war at internationally recognised boarders, rebuilding Ukraine letting them choose their own path geopolitically, AND helping Russia rebuild from decades of corruption and kleptocracy.
Until then the only way to stop Putin, who only recognises strength, is to fight back.
True peace in the region will be achieved by Putin being removed from power by the Russian people, ending the war at internationally recognised boarders, rebuilding Ukraine letting them choose their own path geopolitically, AND helping Russia rebuild from decades of corruption and kleptocracy.
If that is the best path to peace, then I hope all of those things are achieved. But, if other possibilities need to be considered, I’m open to considering them.
An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. -Winston Churchill
There isnt, they’ve been tried and failed. Time to block you for outing yourself as a Tankie
Medvedev literally said “we will invade Ukraine anyway after any peace deal goes through”. So how is your stance not appeasement of a warmongering dictator?
He’s not interested in peace. Russia’s demands for a ceasefire are maximalist and would essentially erase Ukraine as a nation. They only pay lip service to diplomacy for international optics.
In the last 30-ish years nobody in Europe had considered Russia “the enemy”, on the contrary a lot of people were happy of doing business with them and putain could have chosen a path to integration with the rest of Europe and “the West” in general. I even dreamt of them being a civilised part of EU, along with the rest of the countries on the continent. But no, he had to revive the tsarist empire instead.
In the last 30-ish years nobody in Europe had considered Russia “the enemy”
I don’t doubt that, but I do think there has remained a fair amount of mistrust and animosity between Russia and the United States, possibly a hold over from the cold war era, and I don’t think Russia sees much, if any, distinction between NATO and their enemy the United States.
Before Russia did their heel turn in the aughts, they almost joined NATO after a period of significant cooperation. Russia seeing the U.S., or it’s allies, as enemies is a symptom of Putin turning a fledgling democracy into a dictatorship, not the natural state of affairs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–NATO_relations
Go to the “Development of post-Cold War cooperation (1990–2004)” section and check out “NATO-Russia Founding Act”, “NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council”, and “NATO-Russia Council”.
Back then the talk was pearl clutching over NATO with Russia being seen as some racist white alliance against China, MENA, India, and others in the global south.
Russia only sees us as enemies because Putin needed to create enemies to seize and consolidate power.
If Russia hadn’t invaded Ukraine they wouldn’t be joining NATO. Same with Finland and Sweden.
Also, if they stopped being dickweeds they could have normal and friendly relations with the West. Russia’s paranoia is the problem, not NATO.
Russia should focus inward and become a country that people want to ally with and that people don’t fear will come for them. Start by putting a halt to invasions and murder. It’s some incel, victim-blaming shit from them…work on yourself Russia, be better so you aren’t the creepy guy noone trusts. Sorry if that takes generations of self sacrifice until a new population grows up only seeing your good acts for themselves and wondering why great!grandpa is so mad at a reasonable economic system that they don’t even use in Russia.
Ukraine isn’t allying with the west per se, it’s allying with the countries that aren’t in violation of the Budapest accords.
Thank you for the chance to clarify.
Reality and Russia’s perception are likely at odds with one another, but even if Russia’s perception is inaccurate and based on delusion and paranoia, it is nonetheless their perception.
You’re buying their excuses. Chechnya wasn’t joining NATO. South Ossetia wasn’t joining NATO. Ukraine wasn’t joining NATO before they lost Crimea in 2014.
Russia is an aggressive power that uses military might to hold power over people that do not want to be ruled by Moscow.
Funny how there was no reply to this comment. I wonder why they didn’t get back to you. Maybe they needed to cook dinner, or go to work, or rethink their entire life.
I hope it’s the last one but I’m not counting on it.
I’ve come to the realization that the only people truly believing ruZZian excuses, are people too young to know better. And not in a “hurr it’s all 12 year Olds” kind of way but in a “you have not paying attention to the wider world for long enough to know how some places just are”
And yeah, sure we all know what we want the world to be, but unfortunately right now we have to deal with how things are.
And how things are shows that Russia is clearly in the wrong here, full stop.
They also have the support of the minority that wants to tear down democracy as a ruling principle. Some of those people are quite intelligent, they’re just mean and believe in power, violence and the importance of suffering. In their world the truth is not objective, what is true is whatever the strongest person says it is, because he will hurt you if you disagree. This destruction of objective factuality is a core part of their methodology and overall worldview.
We had to defeat them in a World War just to get to where we are today, but they never did fully give up. Stubborn sorts.
It also tends to be people farthest away from what’s going on. The most anti-Russian countries tend to be those geographically closest to Russia. Those on the border with them know what’s at stake and why having military backing against Russian aggression is so important.
You didn’t answer the question.
Diplomacy was utilized before Russians crossed the Ukraine border to launch a full scale invasion. Also back when Russia was “intimidated” by Ukraine’s inherited nuclear arsenal and made agreement they will leave Ukraine alone - and this, among other things led us here.
Now why would they fear Ukraine joining a non-confontational alliance?
And how do you rationalize the fear of your neighbour making new friends by physically attacking them?
I don’t know if you are a russian bot or actually conflicted so I’m giving you a chance to explain what you think Ukraine should really do. In my mind, bowing down to a bully is never ever the answer and support any aid they get in their purely defensive war.
Now why would they fear Ukraine joining a non-confontational alliance?
I don’t think Russia sees NATO as non-confrontational.
And how do you rationalize the fear of your neighbour making new friends by physically attacking them?
I don’t think Russia sees it merely as a “neighbor making new friends,” I think they see it as a neighbor, that they feel culturally connected to, making alliances with their enemy.
I don’t know if you are a russian bot
I am not. I’ve never been to Russia, I don’t know any Russian people. I’m American, I’ve lived in the US my entire life. I’m just trying to look at things from Russia’s perspective, because I think that’s critical, regardless of how we proceed.
explain what you think Ukraine should really do.
I am not against Ukraine defending itself from invasion, nor am I necessarily against them joining NATO. I completely understand why they would want to do that, and I would probably want to do the same. I simply want to find a solution that will result in the least possible loss of life and an end to the conflict as quickly as possible.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt then, mostly because I agree with you that the best solution is the one where the fewest amount of people die.
I think where we diverge is how to achieve this. From what we’ve seen so far, Ukraine surrendering would probably not end the war. At least long term. Russia would use the time to re-arm and retry. Even if they don’t, the people in these new russian territories would be poorly treated and potentially murdered, especially those disagreeing with the peace agreement. That is my honest opinion. Therefore, the only other ways are Russia going home or Ukraine beating them.
The first one isn’t happening, so we end up alternative three.
Do you agree or disagree with my assessment?
Try to empathize with the Russian people and not with the Russian state and things will make a lot more sense.
Now why would they fear Ukraine joining a non-confontational alliance?
I don’t think Russia sees NATO as non-confrontational.
If Russia is so afraid of NATO attacking them, then why did they withdraw pretty much all troops from the Finnish border? There’s barely border guards there.
I wonder who fucking started the escalations?
Uh… nato…
I think it’s the other way around: Russia is aggressive but a show of strength would deter it. In other words, Russia isn’t desperate to avoid a confrontation with the West. Russia wants a confrontation with the West, and it needs to know that that’s a confrontation it won’t win. (China also needs to know that, and it’s watching the situation in Ukraine closely.)
That’s not to say that we should seek out such a confrontation with the goal of intimidating Russia. A high-stakes situation like that does have the risk of escalating out of control. However, the situation in Ukraine is already such a confrontation, initiated by Russia due to its belief that the West is weak. It would have been much better to avoid creating such a belief, but now is too late for that. The best we can do is to avoid reinforcing it and, from a pragmatic perspective, it helps that most of the risk is borne by Ukraine.
In short, the nightmare scenario is Russia invading a NATO country like one of the Baltic states. Then either there is a war between nuclear powers immediately or Western unity collapses and a war between nuclear powers becomes much more likely in the near future. Our best chance of avoiding that is to stop Russia in Ukraine, where we can do so indirectly.
Edit: Also people shouldn’t be down-voting you. You’re making a valid point that needs to be addressed.
I disagree. As the cold war showed, shows of strength escalate, they do not deter. I don’t believe for a moment Russia wants a confrontation with the West or that they believe the West is weak. I think they invaded Ukraine because they were scared of the West. They were scared of Ukraine’s rich agricultural land coming under the control of the West, and they were scared of NATO being on their doorstep. I think the invasion of Ukraine was an act of fear and desperation, and if we continue down this path, more acts of fear and desperation will follow.
NATO has been on their doorstep since its inception, so this argument is unreasonable.
Norway is a founding member and share a border with them.
The scenario you describe has already come to pass. Russia has NATO on their doorstep since Finland joined, Russia’s chances of breaking through the Ukrainian army and actually capturing that agricultural land are rather low even if Western support for Ukraine drops significantly, and Ukraine is going to be friendly to the West and hostile to Russia even if it isn’t allowed into NATO. If this scenario is intolerable to Russia, then whatever would happen is going to happen.
I do think there is a small but significant risk that Russia will use nuclear weapons in Ukraine (a scenario where both escalating and not escalating are likely to be disastrous) if its army is driven back to the border but not if the war becomes a frozen conflict with Russia controlling the territory it currently does. With that said, I disagree that shows of strength don’t deter. Western strength deterred a Soviet invasion of Europe, and it deters a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. There definitely is a risk of escalation, but there always will be. The USA has tried being isolationist before, but it was still drawn into both world wars. It will be drawn into the next one if such a war happens.
With that said, I disagree that shows of strength don’t deter. Western strength deterred a Soviet invasion of Europe
Yes, but it also encouraged the establishment of the “iron curtain” of Soviet satellite states and a nuclear arms race. It’s only by the grace of god, or sheer dumb luck that full scale nuclear war didn’t break out.
The geographical argument for Russia wanting to take Ukraine is nonsense BECAUSE of the nuclear threat. Having a physical buffer zone or whatever is complete nonsense in an era where anyone who poses a real existential threat can simply be nuked out of existence and start the apocalypse. A few thousand kms of extra land does exactly zilch to change the calculus for the West starting a war with Russia. Russia wants Ukraine because it wants to make more money, and no other reason.
I think Russia wants Ukraine not in order to make money but in order to have Putin go down in history as the restorer of the Russian empire. That lack of pragmatism is what’s going to make negotiations difficult.
That, but also the fossil fuels underneath Ukraine, let’s not forget about those.
What exactly was the west supposed to do though? They weren’t gonna stop at ukraine. They want to take Moldova, Georgia, maybe even parts of Finland as well before they joined NATO. Stopping then now and letting the countries join nato/eu would solve future invasions. Russia shouldn’t have to feel threatened if they stopped acting like a threat to everyone else.
Where do you draw the line? If you are happy to give up Ukraine to avoid a nuclear war, where do you stop? Can he take all of Eastern Europe? What about the whole of Europe? Everywhere except your country?
Putin is a bully, and you stand up to bullies.
Besides, he might have the most nukes, but given the maintenance costs for 5,000+ of them and the corruption in Russia, most of them probably won’t work.
You may want to look up the Sudeten crisis/Munich agreement and how effective it was at preventing war.
Ok, I give up. I’ve been down voted to hell and told repeatedly by multiple people that I’m an idiot or a coward or a Russian bot for wanting a peaceful resolution to the conflict, so I’m going to defer to the expertise of all these people and concede the point. It’s not like my opinion was going to change anything anyway.
Peaceful resolution is not only the easiest thing in the word, it is 100% Russia’s choice…stop invading and go back home and try to make yourself a productive member of the world…start with your own suffering people.Russia was old news and no one cared before the invasions. If you are always treated like the bad guy, you have to put a lot of effort in to selflessly prove you aren’t and the world will take notice…or invade and get shit on and be the villain everyone said you are…
It’s not the world’s call here. Debate the people that actually can change this situation.
That’s the hivemind for you. Personally I don’t think you deserve downvotes for these comments and I don’t think you are a Russian shill. I replied to you because I understand where you’re coming from, and I was trying to get you to see things the way I see them : I actually held the same opinion when Russia annexed Crimea by force in 2014 even though people were already screaming that it was basically Hitler’s playbook. But the fact that Putin didn’t take that easy, huge W when basically the entire world went for appeasement, and instead decided to keep escalating convinced me that he is actually literally applying Hitler’s playbook (and backing it with mutually assured destruction, of all things).
I’ve been thinking about it, and I think I understand why many people have such strong reactions to the situation. Russia did illegally invade a sovereign nation, without provocation. They have killed thousands of innocent people and they have done incredible harm. It’s abhorrent. Any such unjustified invasion (like the US invasion is Iraq, for instance) is abhorrent. I suppose some people view my attempts to dispassionately look for peaceful solutions to the conflict as a kind of tacit support for Russia, or at least indifference. I am not indifferent, and I certainly don’t support their illegal and immoral actions, I just don’t want anything that could lead to more war, or more widespread war. However, as you’ve said, Russia has likely left the rest of the world with few other choices.
Good on you for trying. I gave up a while ago. A consensus has formed, at least on here and on most of the English-speaking internet and lines have been drawn. Contrary opinions are rarely tolerated. Thankfully the rest of the world isn’t as gung-ho on isolating Russia and is actually helping restore some balance, because at the end of the day whether Ukraine is a NATO country or a Russian protectorate in ten years time matters little in the grand scheme of things.
What matters more is that the global pecking order between great powers is disturbed and this will likely lead to frequent local and perhaps generalized conflict in the future. It would be helpful for more countries to remain neutral, so as to help maintain balance and independence, while limiting the reach of great powers, but under such intense competition for global dominance most countries have to pick a sponsor for better or worse. And Ukraine’s leadership has chosen NATO, naturally. Whether they could have remained neutral or not is for historians to debate. Right now, as the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Do the US, Russia, and China have to be enemies? Yes, unfortunately they do. They have competing interests and the decline of the US is leaving space open for others. Hence also the focus on getting Europe more heavily militarized again. So that it can hold its own in the uncertain times to come. That is my understanding.
Why the FUCK would a country choose their invader as a sponsor?
Indeed, why would they? I never said they should, so not sure what you’re upset about.
By allowing Russia to expand it further provokes the west to use nuclear weapons. Huh, guess we’re at a deadlock. I guess Russia could give back what they stole.
I guess Russia could give back what they stole.
They should, but if they don’t, what should be done, knowing that no one’s interests are served by all out war between Russia and the West?
That’s funny because Ukraine gave up their nukes and Russia signed the agreement to defend their territorial integrity. Russia’s feelings are irrelevant and if they want to nuke us all so they can get out of a contract they signed, that’s their problem.
Another thing is you can appease someone completely in reality and people like Vladimir Putin will just turn around and say it’s still not enough.
Yes, appease the bully, clearly the best strategy.
It worked for Hitler!
…wait.
Nuke time
On one hand, Russia deserves to be nuked. On the other hand, I don’t want innocent people to die. So unfortunately no nukes.
The purely defensive pact keeps on expanding.
I wonder why? What happened recently to get all these nations lining up to join Nato?
Yeah, right after Russia invades one country, capturing and killing men, women, and children while threatening other countries. Weird…
It didn’t start there.
Where did it start?
It started when the USSR collapsed and the purely defensive pact that was created solely to fight off the USSR wasn’t dissolved with it. It became an organization looking for a purpose.
And Russia has not been an aggressor since… “please list all russian backed invasions since 1990”
The US is objectively more of an aggressor. Where’s the NATO equivalent for fighting them off? Oh right, dismantled, stomped on, and now taking victory laps around it.
Im no defender of the US but they are not actively expanding into neighbouring territory. And there is nothing stopping Russia approaching Canada and Mexico about a military alliance, except the reality of the how absurd it is.
They gotta collectively match the size of Russia to be competitive.
Please expand on your comment, it doesnt say much. As I understand it, a sovereign nation has opted to join a group under its own free will due in part to threats, invasions, land grabs and broken agreements by its nuclear capable neighbour.
You’re taking NATO at face value while ignoring the actions taken underground to pry apart any countries who aren’t friendly to the west. Why would the west need to fund operations like this if it was such a voluntary and clearly beneficial relationship?: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa
And you are acting like the actions taken by aggressive nations dont factor into this at all. Russia annexed Crimea, is it any wonder they want some sort of protection.
Think about when Russia annexed Crimea and then compare that to the date of the article I linked. Clearly there was more going on behind the scenes and it wasn’t just a matter of Russia deciding one day to expand their territory.
So? They are not forcing anyone to join. Unlike certain other countries
So then how should russia feel and respond to this?
Disengage from Ukraine and stop invading countries.
Should anyone start invading when their feelings are getting hurt now?
How did the US feel when Cuba allowed russia to put weapons there? Let me answer the question; Kennedy threatened complete war and the destsruction of the world. Should the Soviets have put weapons in Cuba?
Sure, invade the US. Ukrain has nothing to do with it.
Cool, you didnt answer the question. The problem is that if you actually think about it for a second you will realize how this whole thing was directly caused by NATO/American interference. I am not infavor of countries invading but its not the “UNPROVOKED!!” bullshit line they keep repeating. This war was completely avoidable.
Well, generally, Russia can go fuck itself.
By minding their own business? Why would they care?
The care because they believe it is a direct move of aggression and endangers their people. Why did the US care during the Cuban missile crisis?
They should feel that they lost the cold war and their kleptocracy isn’t conductive to expanding their already reduced sphere of influence, so they better make peace with the fact.
Since they dont feel this and feel directly threatened, why should NATO/America keep pushing it till war?
'cause they can. There’s no good guys in international politics, you can check out an history book to confirm that.
So are you going to be the one sent overseas to die in a country that most people dont care anything about?
you clearly aren’t grokking what I’m trying to communicate
The coup in 2014 was carried out by force.
The CIA paid a million people to stand out in the could for months on end? Whoa, where do they keep all these actors?
I’m not doing your work for you tankie. Quote the part of the article that supports your thesis.
You all do this same thing, throw a book at someone and when they refuse to bow to your demand to waste their time you declare victory.
First you intentionally make the dumbest interpretation of how a situation can occur, then when I post an article that shows exactly how something like this goes down, you call me a name, refuse to read, and revel in your ignorance. A simple article is not a book. Operations to subvert politics in a country take many years, even decades, and the article talks about US operations to interfere in the politics of Ukraine. Do you think you can make the connection between that and what happened around a decade after that article was written or is this too difficult for you?
No you threw a link at me and expecting me to strain out whatever point you were trying to make. And you still won’t do the simple act of concisely presenting whatever you think proves you right. Instead you caterwaul for two paragraphs worth of text.
It’s probably because you’re trying to walk me to your point of view and the article really doesn’t contain the definitive proof you think it does.
All you ML propaganda tactics are predicated on deception which you justify by saying it’s for the revolution.
Your praxis does not work in the information age where anyone can fact check your biased premise.
And yes I’m well aware that western governments foment decent artificially. That doesn’t prove anything about the euromadien protests. We all know if there were some ML uprising you would not accept the idea that it was BS because western govs do velvet revolutions. Before you say that doesn’t happen Lenin him fucking self was smuggled out of Europe by Anglo bourgeoisie to overthrow the Czar.
Even if thats true (spoiler, it isnt) there have been plenty of free, internationally recognized (not just by the west), elections since them.
Lmfao stfu Tankie.
It’s a “coup” when I dislike it, and a glorious revolution when I do. /s
That’s why the west calls it the “revolution of dignity” lol. Do you have any sense of self-awareness? Such dignity having the CIA up your ass to make your country more west-friendly.
I mean, have you ever been there? I have, it was incredibly corrupt, and this was AFTER 2014. it’s not so unbelievable that people tried to enact a change…
“revolution of dignity”
Is what Ukrainians called it after countless of them were murdered by police in the streets and they successfully ran their Pro-Putin dictator out of the country. Seethe harder fascist.
The people of Iraq also welcomed the US as liberators.
That was a way worse path to NATO membership than just fixing the corruption issues that were keeping them out of NATO in the first place.
