Hey guys, let’s give your pensions to a few CEO’s, sounds like a good plan?
Man with money wants to steal yours to fund a risky bubble? What could possibly go wrong?
AI is going to crash the economy. It doesn’t have a business model that pays for itself. Less capacity is being built than is claimed, and companies like Microsoft and Google would essentially have to double their total revenue to cover the AI capex. Read Ed Zitron for a sober detailed take on the state of the AI industry.
Ed is gonna die from a smug overdose when it happens, my man has been calling his shot
Agreed.
Hey guys, let’s liquidate Social Security and invest it all in AI and reap Huuuugee profits!
Yuuuge!
Oh so you guys didn’t give a fuck about China’s superior railway system, their better electric cars, and their other areas where they have on par, or superior tech than we do. But when they have better AI you guys want the country to bend over and get fist fucked.
Get the fuck out of here.
We don’t care about better EVs, we will protect our buggy whip industry at all costs to our own consumers
Then they will cry for a bailout when they inevitably fail. Again.
But when they have better AI you guys want the country to bend over and get fist fucked.
It’s legit infuriating to see the Chinese economy investing in bluesky R&D, which has the long term benefit of better software, cheaper hardware, and more useful technology. All while American politicians insist “We need to build more hand cranks and charcoal fire pits to power our billionaire sponsored CSAM engines!”
All this while US Tech Companies turn increasingly to religious hacks to launder their shitty apps and platforms.
Yep we’re a nation that’s captured by venture capitalists and they are draining the country dry.
The rest of the world should not do business with these vultures.
Hey its like I been saying for a while now:
Oh you think you have a 401k huh?
That’s cute.
Better idea: tax billionaires. They’re the main beneficiaries, they should pay.
And there it is folks, the end of the pension plans nationwide.
Go after the few remaining pensions in the US so this blackrock chud can buy another yacht. Guillotine time for sure. The only remaining people who contribute to pensions are teachers, firefighters, public employees who make shit salaries anyway. This guy wants to float their AI adventure on the backs of working people.
Fuck Blackrock.
It’s the final Pillaging stage of a society which is almost entirely structured to maximize rent-seeking of the Owner class.
The snake is eating itself.
Why does US feel the need to compete with China? It’s going to play out just like when Soviets tried to keep up with the US spending
Because the oligarchs in the West recognize that their power will vanish once the people stop thinking of China as an enemy and instead objectively compare the quality of life for the average person in the 2 countries
But China isn’t spending trillions on their AI…
Why do we need to spend trillions to stay ahead of someone who is only spending billions? Might be worth looking into whatever leak in the system is extracting so much money we need to spend 1000x what our competitors are spending just to keep up. We could start by looking at people who have hundreds of billions of dollars at the heads of the AI companies, looks like a few hundred billions might have slipped into their wallets by accident. I’m sure they’ll be happy to give it back to the people.
Because China has taken the open source route with their AI and are allowing people from all over to use/contribute to their models. You cannot outspend what they are getting for free, and while our companies compete with one another to be the one true AI company, China’s companies/citizens are cooperating with one another to build their AI.
They will win the AI war simply by not playing the capitalism game, all while undermining the enormous investment the US has made into our AIs.
Uh that’s not how this works. They’re not open source, they’re open weight. Well, the smaller distillations are. The big ones are still closed. And it takes a bunch of compute to train them, but they’ve learned to be thriftier since they don’t have access to nearly as much parallel compute as the American companies right now. The models also tend to trail in performance. Takes a lot less to compete for third place than first.
Why is this being downvoted? It’s factually true.
I’d love actual open source training somehow. But at the moment I don’t think an asynchronous training mechanism that would enable this exists, given that running the flagship models on even a small batch of data requires massive compute power.
DeepSeek is one of if not the most popular Chinese AI and is open source and requires a small amount of computing compared to others. Its used in numerous Chinese car brands, smart phones, and even government services throughout China.
China isn’t competing for Third they are leading the world in AI development and have already integrated it in many areas.
Again, at the very least, no, they’re not open source. Open-weights means anyone can download, use, and tinker with them a bit, but there is no access to their code, training data, or process.
It’s just as limiting as closed source software with some modding allowed, but not as limiting as an online-api-only model, as many of the most powerful modern models are.
There are no heroes in the Global Powers’ race. The USA is a comically cartoonish villain in real life, yes, but all the biggest Chinese data centres for all that training, are still built in poor areas (Inner Mongolia and the bullshit that China has apparently inflicted on them), and still fucking over those who live there.
It’s abuse all the way down.
You mean all of this code that is clearly on their github: https://github.com/deepseek-ai? They release both their model weights as well as the source code for their AI. You can literally take what they have provided to create your own LLM if you would like to and get a good understanding of their AI. Sure you can’t see the training data but that would be like putting the entirety of the internet in a github repo and just isn’t feasible, but you can contribute your own training data to a local setup of deepseek and shape it in a way you want to.
The training data is as important as the source code here to replicate the end result. The weights are more like a binary distribution. You can run the model and you can technically edit it just like you can technically edit a binary file.
They also only release some libraries and tools for running the model if you have a set of weights (which they do graciously provide), but they do NOT release the source code for their training pipeline itself. That’s up to you to reverse engineer from the whitepapers. Right now even if you had the exact training data and the compute available, you could not train your own Deepseek V3.2, let alone V4.
training data is as important as the source code here to replicate the end result
this is the nature of this flame war. Perfect replication of the end result, which is extremely opaque in how it works, is not nearly as important as the weights, that you can post train for any domain specific/general improvement with any other dataset. Which is how the authors would improve/change the weights further as well.
If people on Lemmy can’t understand this I have no hope for the average person.
You’re talking like you know what you’re talking about, but you clearly are guessing. Knock it off. Don’t mask conjecture as fact.
Haven’t they clearly documented how they did it and what they used so that anyone can replicate it? Anyone with the compute power, which of course few have. But universities could do it.
So how is it not open source in this specific domain of problems? What would a LLM model need to do to be open source then? Duplicate the whole training dataset in a big zipfile for you to download?
From what I understand you could even replicate deepseek by replacing the “cold start” with latest deepseek instead.
Haven’t they clearly documented how they did it and what they used so that anyone can replicate it?
They don’t put up the actual code for their training pipeline though. It’s more of a “if you have enough engineers, you can do this too” whitepaper, because they wouldn’t want any rando training their own model.
Right now, even if you had the exact training set (which is a CRUCIAL part of an LLM and you can NOT replicate it without it), you couldn’t rebuild the thing exactly, you’d need to do a whole lot of extra work.
So how is it not open source in this specific domain of problems?
You could call all proprietary software open source then. The UI and user manual describe what it does, you can do your own engineering to duplicate the functionality.
So its significantly closer to being ‘open’ in that qualified organizations can poke around with some of its innards and probably achieve something useful, in comparison to fully propietary models where that is either legally impossible or extremely, absurdly expensive.
Its sorta like …
… a compiled game that requires you to fully reverse engineer a lot of it to be able to mod it at all, while also its use liscense states that doing that is illegal,
… a compiled game that is highly moddable via tools/apis and/or a significant portion of it that is well publically documented or just source code available,
… and then a truly totally open source, libre game.
Yeah, not totally open source.
But functionally and practically closer to it.
I can mod the shit out of Half Life 2 or New Vegas or CyberPunk or Kenshi, but not so much with … I dunno, basically any live service game.
I still need those original core compiled exes for those games, but basically, many things I can fuck with relatively easily… and maybe if I really go nuts I can figure out how to hack or shim or hijack the exe to make NVSE or RedScript or ReKenshi or whatnot.
As compared to trying to mod HellDivers or Fortnite… near instant ban, most likely.
But also, if you don’t know much about how to make a mod, well you’re basically SoL in that department just the same for any kind of game, really.
Why even have this discussion? Self-learning algorithms appeared more than ten years ago. AI is being used very effectively in countless areas.
The idea that there is some sort of prize waiting for whomever gets the most computing power, is highly dubious.
Yet that idea is the entire basis of the US economy, at the moment.
Let’s start with law congressional pensions and 3rd party law enforcement contracts, yeah?
So that’s why nasdaq is changing their rules for SpaceX IPO?
Yep!
Your retirement fund is his exit liquidity, and you likely can’t do shit about this, because that’s how easy it is to just fully mask off the US economy/political/legal system as a wealth raping machine.
These problems, this kind of potential has like, always been there.
But normalcy bias is a hell of a drug, I guess.
Its the most obvious con, fraud, ever.
But its all the systems around making that into a fraud you cannot very easily opt out of, once your see how obvious it is… that’s the clever part.
I suspect Musk did it first and now that guy wants in on the scam too
That guy actually loses out if Musk et al fuck up Nasdaq. Blackrock makes money from management fees and those decrease when the fund’s value goes down.
But BlackRock also has Chinese index funds so that’ll make up for the shortfall, he doesn’t really give a fuck if the US wins the “AI race” or not.
Only that fuck from nvidia cares, if US wins they sell more chips. If they loose they have competition. Fortunately China just announced a new chip technology “projected to deliver capabilities comparable to 1.4-nanometer process technology by 2031” so we’ll eventually have competition to bring down prices.
This is not about China. This is about private equity being so desperate for money they want new laws that allow the shadow PE banking system access to government money. Tax payer money.
Be very careful around this topic. Reading headlines isn’t going to cut it and this is very dangerous territory.
The house of cards needs money urgently. Your money and they are done asking nicely.
Not just tax payer money, your money, your personal savings.
They’re going to burn it all and then oh too bad, it’s too big to bailout so fuck you American people! Keep working in servitude till you die at your post.
I just want to see billions vs 20… one at a time like civilized people. each billionaire+ must defend their life/money by physically fighting every human on earth… one by one.
No shit it’s not about China. The China argument has whatever threat level is convenient at the moment, which is why we couldn’t possibly give any chips to China, until actually Nvidia kind of wants to send chips to china because they want that money too. If it was a real threat, the messaging would have any sort of fucking consistency.
Hey, it’s a tradition, and you don’t want to be the turd in the punchbowl.
Forget about the money, alright? It’s not going to matter in the coming years, so let us take it now and use it, as we best know how.
Don’t you worry about a thing. It will all work out.
Ideally with the poors dying out, and being replaced by robots, but we can’t always have nice things immediately.
