The Gush Etzion Regional Council has acknowledged ritualistic child abuse allegations within its communities following investigations and survivor testimonies, shaking Israel's religious-Zionist sector.
My first reaction to this headline, coming from a german speaking country, was that it sounds like a neonazi hitpiece (it wouldn’t be the first time that neonazis would spread allegations like this).
The article quickly made me realize that those allegations have a lot of substance and credibility.
Any zionists here who wanna explain why i now have to say that some fucking nazis had a point?
Zionism is as much representative of Judaism as NAZIsm is representative of all Germanic people.
Just because these ethno-Fascist White Supremacist groups claim they represent a specific ethnicity doesn’t mean they do.
Granted, Zionism has lasted a lot longer and there is a lot more parroting of the whole equating Judaism with Zionism in countries with a captured Press and/or Fascists traditions, so it’s understandable that many will actually believe that idea as pushed by Zionists, but there are plenty of Jewish voices saying that’s not so (curiously one which is called Jewish Voices For Peace and has just been deemed by a German Court an “Extremist Organization” for their criticism of Israel, which is interesting given the parallels between NAZIsm and Zionism).
Anyways, there is no such thing as a politican ideology or a country which represents an entire ethnicity - that would logically require that all people of a ethnicity are the same (i.e. “they’re all the same”) which is a foundational stone of Racism. I guess most people who believe the equivalence between Israel/Zionism and the Jewish People seem to have just accepted it a face value and never have really analysed it it down to its component parts and thus did not realize that such equation of one and the other relies on pure ethnic prejudice about people based on ethnicity.
What is the polling on % of American Jews supporting Israel? Or individual synagogues being pro or anti Zionist? One Jewish zionist I was talking to recently said Jewish Voices for Peace represented a tiny minority and was very dismissive about the extent of antizionism among Jews in general but I’m sure she has a bias.
I vaguelly remembers reading that in the latest polls about half of Jews in the US do not support the actions of Israel, tough the ones who are actually against the existence of Israel are much less (I think it was less than 20%, but am not sure anymore).
I’m in Europe and a lot of the Press here is a lot more open about the actions of Israel and less prone to the Manufacturing ConsentI spin on stories about the actions of Israel, so I suspect that in average the views of Jews here towards Israel are more negative than for those in the US (though I suppose that depends on the country: I wouldn’t be surprised if hard-core Zionist beliefs were more common in the UK and Germany than in the rest of Europe). This would be consistent with the view of Israel amongst the population in general in Europe being a lot more negative than in the US.
Independently of that, were exactly do you set the “these guys represent you and everybody like you even if you disagree” boundary? In other words, how many Jews must believe that “Israel does not represent me” for it to be false that Israel to represent the Jewish People? Also, if the numbers fall below that at one point, does that mean that Israel doesn’t represent the Jewish People anymore or is it a sticky representation whether people want to or not?
The whole domain of anything or anybody representing an entire ethnicity without even a Democratic election is a massive minefield of Prejudicial and even Racist presumptions.
Beyond that, the entire subject of Zionism and Israel representing an entire etnicity (the Jewish People) carries the very same strong stink as NAZIsm and NAZI Germany representing an entire etnicity (the Arian Race).
Nazis didn’t have a point. The zionist project is a continuation of nazism, not judaism. Nazis also abused children in horrible ways. Ethnosupremacy leads to (and is a product of) corrosion of all morality and social norms
The zionist project is a continuation of nazism, not judaism.
The Zionist project perdates Nazism by several decades. It may be morally abhorrent, but it’s not Nazism. It’s a me-too version of European enthno-nationalism combined with colonialism, both of which were widespread in the 19th century. In Europe, ethno-nationalism led to nation-states coalescing such as Italy and Germany, but at the expense of ethnic minorities whose languages and cultures were suppressed. The colonialist variant led to oppression of indigenous peoples, especially in Africa, but to a lesser extent in the Caribbean, Polynesia and other parts of the world.
Within European colonialism, it was not unusual for members of disadvantaged groups to be the ones to become colonists (for example, the Catalans in Cuba, Baseques in Spanish colonies, or the Scots in far-flung corners of the British empire). Jews in 19th-century Europe were still subject to discrimination (though in most parts, their position would improve in the early 20th century until the fascists gained power), so it’s not surprising to see emigration to a new colony being perceived by some as an option.
So that’s the historical context. None of that makes it right, anymore than what the French did in Algeria was right. There’s a logic to ethno-nationalism and colonialism that makes oppression inevitable and genocide likely. But conflating Zionism with Nazism is neither correct nor helpful. It’s evil in its own way, but more in alignment with other ethno-nationalist and colonialist movements than Nazism. Claiming differently just allows objectors to point to the many unique features of Nazism to refute the claim, distracting from the real point, that such murderous injustice is an intrinsic feature of both ethno-nationalism and colonialism.
Yup. Me neither. Wherever there is an excess of money/power and entitlement, some perverted shitheel is going to organize pedophilia (and/or other sexual extremes) with other perverted shitheels. The entitlement tells them they should have whatever they want, then the money/power gets it for them and keeps it protected from external interference, and the train rolls on.
Epstein himself made a career of trading influence and favors on exactly that: occasionally he made the mistake of offering sexual access to minors to the wrong person and then he’d back off immediately, saying, “No, that’s not what I meant, bad joke, but wouldn’t you like [some other elite thing, like meeting a celeb] instead,” and no one would even bat an eye.
Israel is already credibly accused of raping everyone but children – men, women, prisoners, detainees, settlers – when it comes to Palestinians, activists, and others, so who legitimately thinks they’re not ALSO raping the kids?
When you strip away insane amounts of money and power, and the perks and exclusivity and protection that money and power buy, you will always find that evil is indeed banal, and the vices that consume the poorest also consume the richest.
Not a zionist, but you thankfully don’t have to.
It is a proven fact now that the israeli state does a lot of messed up objectively evil stuff, but that was never the point of the nazis where I live at least.
What I have heard from that crowd, is that all semitic people groups, especially the Jews, should be killed off. There is thankfully nothing in the news to back up that idea, and it is as insane as arguing for global persecution of all baptists in retaliation for American wars in the middle east. The neonazis I have met have simply hopped on this latest war to spread their hate opportunistically.
This is conflating religion and ethnicity. Wanting to see people liberated from a religion you abhor is very, very different from wanting them all dead.
Of course it is not a perfect comparison, I don’t know of that many ethnoreligious groups with strong ties to one nation state, a strong and historically significant minority presence across much of the world and global recognition on the internet.
I hope I still got the main point across though, that the main neo-nazi position is completely insane, and not really related to the atrocities committed by the israeli state at all.
I really can not believe you now have to admit the Zionists are Nazis to someone!!! I mean we are talking about the chosen people! Our precious chosenite, this is not possible!
My first reaction to this headline, coming from a german speaking country, was that it sounds like a neonazi hitpiece (it wouldn’t be the first time that neonazis would spread allegations like this).
The article quickly made me realize that those allegations have a lot of substance and credibility.
Any zionists here who wanna explain why i now have to say that some fucking nazis had a point?
Zionism is as much representative of Judaism as NAZIsm is representative of all Germanic people.
Just because these ethno-Fascist White Supremacist groups claim they represent a specific ethnicity doesn’t mean they do.
Granted, Zionism has lasted a lot longer and there is a lot more parroting of the whole equating Judaism with Zionism in countries with a captured Press and/or Fascists traditions, so it’s understandable that many will actually believe that idea as pushed by Zionists, but there are plenty of Jewish voices saying that’s not so (curiously one which is called Jewish Voices For Peace and has just been deemed by a German Court an “Extremist Organization” for their criticism of Israel, which is interesting given the parallels between NAZIsm and Zionism).
Anyways, there is no such thing as a politican ideology or a country which represents an entire ethnicity - that would logically require that all people of a ethnicity are the same (i.e. “they’re all the same”) which is a foundational stone of Racism. I guess most people who believe the equivalence between Israel/Zionism and the Jewish People seem to have just accepted it a face value and never have really analysed it it down to its component parts and thus did not realize that such equation of one and the other relies on pure ethnic prejudice about people based on ethnicity.
What is the polling on % of American Jews supporting Israel? Or individual synagogues being pro or anti Zionist? One Jewish zionist I was talking to recently said Jewish Voices for Peace represented a tiny minority and was very dismissive about the extent of antizionism among Jews in general but I’m sure she has a bias.
I vaguelly remembers reading that in the latest polls about half of Jews in the US do not support the actions of Israel, tough the ones who are actually against the existence of Israel are much less (I think it was less than 20%, but am not sure anymore).
I’m in Europe and a lot of the Press here is a lot more open about the actions of Israel and less prone to the Manufacturing ConsentI spin on stories about the actions of Israel, so I suspect that in average the views of Jews here towards Israel are more negative than for those in the US (though I suppose that depends on the country: I wouldn’t be surprised if hard-core Zionist beliefs were more common in the UK and Germany than in the rest of Europe). This would be consistent with the view of Israel amongst the population in general in Europe being a lot more negative than in the US.
Independently of that, were exactly do you set the “these guys represent you and everybody like you even if you disagree” boundary? In other words, how many Jews must believe that “Israel does not represent me” for it to be false that Israel to represent the Jewish People? Also, if the numbers fall below that at one point, does that mean that Israel doesn’t represent the Jewish People anymore or is it a sticky representation whether people want to or not?
The whole domain of anything or anybody representing an entire ethnicity without even a Democratic election is a massive minefield of Prejudicial and even Racist presumptions.
Beyond that, the entire subject of Zionism and Israel representing an entire etnicity (the Jewish People) carries the very same strong stink as NAZIsm and NAZI Germany representing an entire etnicity (the Arian Race).
Nazis didn’t have a point. The zionist project is a continuation of nazism, not judaism. Nazis also abused children in horrible ways. Ethnosupremacy leads to (and is a product of) corrosion of all morality and social norms
The Zionist project perdates Nazism by several decades. It may be morally abhorrent, but it’s not Nazism. It’s a me-too version of European enthno-nationalism combined with colonialism, both of which were widespread in the 19th century. In Europe, ethno-nationalism led to nation-states coalescing such as Italy and Germany, but at the expense of ethnic minorities whose languages and cultures were suppressed. The colonialist variant led to oppression of indigenous peoples, especially in Africa, but to a lesser extent in the Caribbean, Polynesia and other parts of the world.
Within European colonialism, it was not unusual for members of disadvantaged groups to be the ones to become colonists (for example, the Catalans in Cuba, Baseques in Spanish colonies, or the Scots in far-flung corners of the British empire). Jews in 19th-century Europe were still subject to discrimination (though in most parts, their position would improve in the early 20th century until the fascists gained power), so it’s not surprising to see emigration to a new colony being perceived by some as an option.
So that’s the historical context. None of that makes it right, anymore than what the French did in Algeria was right. There’s a logic to ethno-nationalism and colonialism that makes oppression inevitable and genocide likely. But conflating Zionism with Nazism is neither correct nor helpful. It’s evil in its own way, but more in alignment with other ethno-nationalist and colonialist movements than Nazism. Claiming differently just allows objectors to point to the many unique features of Nazism to refute the claim, distracting from the real point, that such murderous injustice is an intrinsic feature of both ethno-nationalism and colonialism.
What are some of these unique nazi features not present in zionism?
Dive into the Epstein files, Ghislaine Maxwell and for bonus credit the Franklin incident. I wasn’t surprised sadly
ghislaine following in her fathers footstep with the whole zionism bit, ghislaine just went the whole extra mile.
Yup. Me neither. Wherever there is an excess of money/power and entitlement, some perverted shitheel is going to organize pedophilia (and/or other sexual extremes) with other perverted shitheels. The entitlement tells them they should have whatever they want, then the money/power gets it for them and keeps it protected from external interference, and the train rolls on.
Epstein himself made a career of trading influence and favors on exactly that: occasionally he made the mistake of offering sexual access to minors to the wrong person and then he’d back off immediately, saying, “No, that’s not what I meant, bad joke, but wouldn’t you like [some other elite thing, like meeting a celeb] instead,” and no one would even bat an eye.
Israel is already credibly accused of raping everyone but children – men, women, prisoners, detainees, settlers – when it comes to Palestinians, activists, and others, so who legitimately thinks they’re not ALSO raping the kids?
Israelis applauded the two soldiers accused of raping a Palestinian man in detention, and of course the charges were dropped, so when that policy comes from the top down and many are even applauding the rapists, what possible restriction of sexual violence then applies to the children?
When you strip away insane amounts of money and power, and the perks and exclusivity and protection that money and power buy, you will always find that evil is indeed banal, and the vices that consume the poorest also consume the richest.
See the following articles for graphic descriptions of how Israel is using sexual violence as an act of war:
The Silence That Meets the Rape of Palestinians - NYT
Israeli soldiers using sexual assault to force Palestinians out of West Bank, report says - The Guardian
“More than a human can bear”: Israel’s systematic use of sexual, reproductive and other forms of gender-based violence since October 2023 - UN Human Rights org (OHCHR)
And there are a lot more where that came from, unfortunately.
Not a zionist, but you thankfully don’t have to. It is a proven fact now that the israeli state does a lot of messed up objectively evil stuff, but that was never the point of the nazis where I live at least. What I have heard from that crowd, is that all semitic people groups, especially the Jews, should be killed off. There is thankfully nothing in the news to back up that idea, and it is as insane as arguing for global persecution of all baptists in retaliation for American wars in the middle east. The neonazis I have met have simply hopped on this latest war to spread their hate opportunistically.
This is conflating religion and ethnicity. Wanting to see people liberated from a religion you abhor is very, very different from wanting them all dead.
Of course it is not a perfect comparison, I don’t know of that many ethnoreligious groups with strong ties to one nation state, a strong and historically significant minority presence across much of the world and global recognition on the internet. I hope I still got the main point across though, that the main neo-nazi position is completely insane, and not really related to the atrocities committed by the israeli state at all.
I really can not believe you now have to admit the Zionists are Nazis to someone!!! I mean we are talking about the chosen people! Our precious chosenite, this is not possible!
Won’t anyone think of the childr… no wait.