Hi there, I’m looking to get into self-hosting for privacy reasons and I wanted to ask y’all: how inadvisable is it to utilize an ISP-owned router/modem? I feel like they’re able to track everything I do online with their more than likely integrated spyware.
Your router is an important security device that you should own and control your self if you want any semblence of ownership over your network.
Your modem is remotely controlled by the ISP even if you own it, and is mostly there to demodulate from the medium installed by your ISP (usually cable, or fiber but those are called ont’s not modems) to a standard cat. 6 Ethernet connection you can plug into most routers.
The main benefit of owning your own modem is not having one with a router built in and not having to pay an equipment fee.
A router provided by an ISP is not your hardware, thus any network behind it is by definition not controlled by you. There have been numerous cases where they have backdoors or known admin passwords. In cases where there is a wire type transition (for example incoming over coax or fiber) it might be necessary to use it though. Same if it is necessary due to your contract.
In my cases I always turn off the wireless antennas and switch it to bridge mode, then place my own router/firewall device behind it.
Edit: still learning to spell.
As I’ve grown older, I’ve realized that I care a lot less about whether I own the device or the ISP. I’ll happily root the fucking thing. What are they going to do, send me to a competitor? I have 3 different networks I can connect from at any moment (including hotspots), so I’m not worried about a minor lapse due to ISP temper tantrums.
Router provided by my ISP is just garbage. The settings are so scrace, I might as well just connect my PC directly (if I could, cause cable is DOCSIS). Had to buy 10yo DOCSIS router that actually is usable.
If your router is fine in settings, maybe changing it won’t be necessary. As for ISP spying on you - probably possible but certainly is not likely.
I gave up on mine for a privacy unrelated reason: they often reboot the thing remotely, for updating or whatnot. not a big deal per se, the problem - my local network stops working, and that I will not abide. so once I stopped using it, the rest (pihole, unbond, etc) came on its own and now I’m not going back.
ISP can see your traffic anyways regardless if their router is at your end or not. In here any kind of ‘user behavior monitoring’ or whatever they call it is illegal, but the routers ISPs generally give out are as cheap as you can get so they are generally not too reliable and they tend to have pretty limited features.
Also, depending on ISP, they might roll out updates on your device which may or may not reset the configuration. That’s usually (at least around here) made with ISPs account on the router and if you disable/remove that their automation can’t access your router anymore.
So, as a rule of thumb, your own router is likely better for any kind of self hosting or other tinkering, but there’s exceptions too.
The ISP wouldn’t see your self hosted traffic. Not to mention many people don’t encrypt it if it’s on their own local network. And ISP tracking is becoming less successful with QUIC, Encrypted Client Hello, and DNS over HTTPS or DNS over TLS.
ISP obviously don’t see the traffic inside your own network, regardless of the router used. But as soon as you open any kind of connection over the internet, incoming or outgoing, your ISP has to have some information about it to route the traffic. DNS over TLS doesn’t hide that your browser opens connections to servers, they can see if you use wireguard to access your services (not which ones, just in general that there’s traffic coming and going) and even if you use VPN for everything they can still see the encrypted VPN traffic and, at least technically, apply pattern recognitions on that to figure out what you’re doing. And if you use VPN then your VPN provider can do the same than your last-mile internet provider, so you’ll just move the goal by doing that.
Last-mile ISP is going to be a middleman on your network usage no matter what you use and they’ll always have at least some information about your usage patterns.
Honest answer, why tf would s/o vote this down?
I’ve often wondered about down votes as well. It’s not the points, as I care nothing about that. However, if you’re going to down vote something, have the balls to explain why. Maybe the down voter knows something that we all can learn from. It just seems like a common courtesy to do so.
It might just be an error. It’s not too hard to hit one by mistake when scrolling on a touch screen device.
Could be. Not ruling that out. It seems to pile up tho on certain comments tho. Makes me wonder. I’m always down to be schooled. Shit son, ring the bell! Ahhh the internet.
However, if you’re going to down vote something, have the balls to explain why.
This is why downvoting is fundamentally flawed. It could be “I don’t like it” all the way up to “I know for a fact that’s wrong,” but nobody else will ever know the rationale.
I don’t even see downvotes on my instance, and I never want to, because it just raises questions and confusion.
I’ve always liked the way slashdot handles comment rating. It’s a bit complicated, so maybe that’s why it’s not adopted elsewhere, but it gives a much more fine grained options instead of just up/downvote.
Oh, that’s an interesting way to do it. You’d probably have to have a handful of moderators each for the various comms, but it sounds like it would at least resist lazy engagement.
because it just raises questions and confusion.
This. I think, waay back in the day, down voting was a way to filter bad information. Whenever I see a down vote on something I’ve said, I’m always left wondering if I gave erroneous information, was I out in the weeds smokin’ crack? I’m always down for being educated.
Regardless of whether your ISP is leveraging their ownership of your router to violate your privacy, they are using it to exploit you financially. Owning your own equipment is always going to save you money compared to what an ISP will charge you in rent.
Well, AT&T for example requires that you use their provided modem+router combo, which they provide for free (unless you include their plans being generally more expensive than their competitors as an extra fee). They do try to sell you on range extenders for, what I assume to be, the shit router they give you.
Their router gives you less control than you’d get with your own router, helps with lock-in because it makes it harder to change providers, and allows AT&T full root access to your network, so I wouldn’t recommend it for self-hosters. However, it is the cheapest option since you’re requited to use it anyway. Besides, of course, using a different ISP, which saves me tooons of money over AT&T.
AT&T fiber does allow IP passthrough mode though so if you want to run your own hardware you can.
That or you can double NAT if an ISP doesn’t allow passthrough. It makes self hosting tougher but if you can port forward on the provided device and just forward everything it’s basically passthrough mode.
You’re ISP probably provides some overpriced really crap hardware that they probably have a back door to, that I’m also not about to screw around with. I’ve always had a router behind their modem/router combo for many reasons, the first being that I have had a 100 ft Ethernet cable since 2005 that let’s me put my router where I want, I can place my wifi where it works best, not just within 6-10 feet of wherever someone 20 years ago decided to drill a hole. Second is because a ddwrt router is so much better than anything you’ll get from your provider, and you can find pretty good compatible ones on eBay or at your local thrift store for cheap.
I’ve always begrudgingly purchased rather than rented from my provider because after a year or so it is usually paid for. So far I’ve purchased four modems over almost 20 years so it’s worked out for me. As for the device itself, I don’t trust it, but I’ll still set some firewall rules just because. I have my router behind it where I do the real stuff. If I’m ever given a device that I need to connect for some sort of monitoring, like my solar panels or something like that, it can connect to my ISPs crap and do whatever sketchy shit it’s gonna do.
Each of these points makes it worth it. Price is always overlooked. Renting is same as a subscription. If you buy your modem it’s more expensive, but at the end you still have a modem. Renting at the end you have nothing.
Recently, a major ISP in the Netherlands was determined to be streaming metadata from within their customer’s networks to Lifemote, a Turkish AI company.
Here’s a report in Dutch: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/245620/odido-router-stuurde-analyticsdata-naar-turks-ai-bedrijf.html
This is just the latest one to get caught doing it, but determine how comfortable you are having your internal network exposed to a 3rd party.
I’ve used personal/non-ISP modems and routers for 25 years because I’m not comfortable with it it. At all… But hey, you do you.
While I would say sending MAC Addresses and Wi-Fi names is very far from tracking everything you do on the internet, this highlight another very important point: The routers that provided by ISPs are usually very cheap and crappy, and this in itself security implications.
Like this example of pulling a script from an unverified HTTP source and executing it as root 🤯… Not to mention that firewalling and port forward configuration options may be pretty simplified and limited.
Most ISP’s in the US are always looking for a government handout. When the government decides to tie that handout with a backdoor attached you will never know about it. If they control the router you don’t get a choice.
Not to mention they buy the cheapest POS they can get to do the job. Then when the wifi sucks they will rent you some mesh nodes. And you can only hope they update them if there is a flaw.
I run OpnSense and have for about 10 years now. I’ve considered using a gPON sfp module so I can get rid of the ONT.
This is why I got a mini PC with five Ethernet ports and configured it as a router/pihole.
Everything goes through a WireGuard VPN, and I have DNS that’s private.
And I know it’s secure because I wrote the iptables myself.
Owning your own modem/router gives you full access to security features. It gives you opportunity to install custom firmware. If you can spring for the $$, I think it would be advisable. That way, the only thing you need from your ISP is the cable/delivery device piping internet into your house.
Even if you control your router/modem, they still control the other end, it connects to. And some more infrastructure along the path. So i think it depends a bit where you’re going with this. If you’re worried about them doing packet inspection, or logging IP numbers you connect to, I don’t think there’s a big difference. They could do it anywhere. And they’ll likely do it in some datacenter.
A router interfaces with your local network, though. So in theory a router can be used to connect to your internal devices and computers and maybe you have an open network share without password protection or something like that. But we’re talking violating your constitutional rights here. It’s highly illegal in most jurisdictions to enter your home and go through your stuff.
I’ll buy my own router because I can then configure it to my liking. And my ISP charges way too much for renting one. And what I also do is not use my ISP’s DNS service. That’d just send every domain name I open to their logfiles. Instead I use one from OpenNIC
Instead I use one from OpenNIC
Fast? How would it compare to the evil Cloudflare?
I did one DNS query and it took 22 msec with the nearest OpenNIC server and 24 msec with Cloudflare’s 1.1.1.1
So dunno… roughly same responsiveness? Maybe OpenNIC is a tad faster? For a proper answer we’d need to do more measurements, though. And with OpenNIC you definitely need to pick a good server, not just any random one. They’ll have different locations, different policies and they’re in widely different datacenters.That makes sense, since you’re in EU and opennic is in DE.
Isn’t it a global effort? According to what I see, they list a bunch of servers in all Europe, USA, Canada, Australia, …Japan?!
Of the tier 1 servers, 2 are in DE and 2 are in USA.
You won’t really hit tier2 unless you’re trying to hit very specific records.
I think the Tiers work the other way around. But I keep forgetting how DNS and recursive lookup works and I might be wrong.
I don’t think you’re supposed to query Tier 1 servers as a client. The Tier 2 servers would be what people connect to and who do the heavy lifting. The Tier 1 just do the root, authoritative stuff and their custom TLDs for the following network. So we’re not worried about where those are located.You might be thinking of PKI and certificate trusts.
Tier 1 in DNS terms are high-level peered (peered with other tier 1 servers in major network segments) and just refer requests either downstream or to other tier 1 servers. This is no longer as necessary with CDNs everywhere, and DNS infrastructure no longer has to mirror routing landscapes, but it seems that opennic.org is still organised in this way.
Anecdotally, I switched a small network to use opennic in 2019 and it was a disaster, never again. I see that the DE servers are still being recommended to me in Canada, so I guess nothing has changed. Opennic is an example of a good idea with terrible execution.
I’ll have to check it out. Thanks.
I would get a router that supports an open source firmware or operating system like OpenWRT. Which one depends entirely on your use case. Getting a router from your ISP is fine if you’re allowed to and capable of flashing it, and if you trust them (I’m lucky that I have an ISP with a track record of fighting for their users’ privacy and integrity).
In addition to not trusting the privacy of stock firmware, OpenWRT provides a lot of useful features for self-hosting like local DNS for your services and a feature-rich firewall to, for example, block devices you don’t trust from phoning home.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
Fewer Letters More Letters CGNAT Carrier-Grade NAT DHCP Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol, automates assignment of IPs when connecting to a network DNS Domain Name Service/System HA Home Assistant automation software ~ High Availability HTTP Hypertext Transfer Protocol, the Web HTTPS HTTP over SSL IP Internet Protocol NAS Network-Attached Storage NAT Network Address Translation PiHole Network-wide ad-blocker (DNS sinkhole) RPi Raspberry Pi brand of SBC SBC Single-Board Computer SSD Solid State Drive mass storage SSH Secure Shell for remote terminal access SSL Secure Sockets Layer, for transparent encryption TLS Transport Layer Security, supersedes SSL VPN Virtual Private Network XMPP Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (‘Jabber’) for open instant messaging
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Depends entirely on the ISP
