All 30 if us who play it agree.

The Franco-German rivalry I had in mind is much older. WW2 was the very final phase of it, but it is clearly present and recognizable at least as early as 1871, ie 70 years earlier, whereas the supposed chronology goes all the way back to the 1400s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French–German_enmity

Regardless, I don’t have the answer, obviously, but I wouldn’t underestimate the capacity of the Israelis and Palestinians to actually get to a (likely implicit/de facto) agreement of what they think is an acceptable answer. But for that, I would imagine serious external pressure to Israel would be needed, similar as the one exerted to the white Afrikaners…

I am quite eurocentric, so take this as a caveat. France and Germany I guess would be the most obvious and successful example? And Germany with like the Netherlands, Poland, etc. Ireland with the UK are getting there too possibly. Sub-nationally, I would add South Africa to the list, maybe also Catalonia, Basque and Quebec (but they’re not winning the oppression olympics).

For Greece and Turkey I think it’s still an unfinished project (Cyprus is the proof of that). We have achieved a big degree of functional reconciliation, but mistrust, hatred, and shenanigans persist (my theory: this because neither nation properly reconciled with the fact that we based our peace on mutual ethnic cleansing…).

And here is the weird take of the day: I wouldn’t be too shy to say that a lot of the Balkans have “advanced” to a point where in practice memes and teasing (think 2balkan4u) serve as a sort of a weird fucked up balkan version of truth and reconciliation…

But that’s the point, right? Justice seen as a process. Nothing can ever be said to be “done” but you can get more towards it.

The concept of justice I’m advocating for in this context (and I’m not claiming to be a moral philosopher) is a mix of Transitional and Restorative concepts of justice. I’m inspired from things like ending vendettas/blood feuds. For such long standing conflicts, absolute justice is just not realizable, because absolute evil has already happened. However we can get to functional relationships and communities that work towards a future. So when I say ‘each side gets what they can live with’ I mean exactly the question of how far can you get to justice without breaking the future. And I actually mean “live with” not just tolerate but actually live. It’s not a compromise in the sense of horse trading, it is a compromising in the sense of accepting that some wrongs just cannot be amended but that a better future is still possible.

The most certain way to deradicalize the Palestinians is simply to deradicalize and demilitarize the Israeli state and to dismantle its apartheid and occupation edifice.

I think you hit the nail on the head exactly. That’s it, the whole affair in one line.

“maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize”

So now that the misunderstanding is cleared, I call you again to examine your assumptions and blind spots.

Stop both sides-ing for goodness sake! There are no two equal sides here. There are the perpetrators and the victims of a genocide, of apartheid, and of occupation.

Not to mention that you are literally factually wrong. Hamas controls Gaza but the PA controls the West Bank. There is nothing the PA does that “creates violence, hatred, destruction and desire for vengeance” among Israelis. So to be extremely clear YOUR FRAMING IS FACTUALLY WRONG. The PA has recognized Israel, supports the two state solution. The PA is so actively trying to supress radicals that if you look around this thread you will see people accusing it of being collaborationists. And what do they get in response? Colonization, occupation, apartheid, and pogroms. If Israel achieves its war goals and eliminates Hamas from Gaza, the result will be that that insufferable misery also extended there. The Palestinians are literally given a choice of genocide or apartheid, of a quick fiery death or a slow bleeding death. This is Israel’s policy and it isn’t just Bibi, it is the Israeli state policy of the last 30 fucking years.

No, it is an attempt (maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize) to make you reflect on whether you have the cultural middleware to really understand that 50 years of occupation is not “forever”, that longer timelines have existed. It’s a call to examine your assumptions.

What absolute position? I wrote a whole paragraph after the bit that you quote exactly on why it is not an absolute position.

Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.

I acknowledged that when I said “If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.”.

Like I told you, it’s Israel that “mows the grass” to make sure no moderate gets ahead. Bargouti is in an Israeli jail.

“what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.”

But that’s the point: if it is not just, it will not be enduring. I don’t understand what is confusing about “no justice no peace”. Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.

Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.

The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators. And it’s not the current right wing government that’s to blame, sorry. It is the whole edifice that the Israelis have built of occupation, apartheid, and now genocide.

You want a moderate palestinian leader? He exists. His name is Marwan Barghouti. And it’s not Hamas that has “done their own thing”. He’s in an Israeli jail, with that worm Ben Gvir torturing him.

And if 50 years seems like a long time to you, and that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you. I know nothing about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn’t have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom. My Greek ancestors were occupied for 400 years. The Irish for 800. Warmongering? Wars for freedom are just wars. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice. No justice? No peace. As simple as that.

So yea, I’m going to take a side.

This isn’t 2005, where things are either newspapers or blogs. Welcome to 2025, where entirely online media organizations exist.

Canadian Dimension (CD) is a Canadian political magazine established in 1963 and based in Winnipeg, Manitoba. The publication is known for its left-wing orientation, including viewpoints associated with social democracy and libertarian socialism.[1] In 2019, Canadian Dimension transitioned to a digital-only format.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Dimension

I think we are not too divergent in our preferences here. We both support Barghouti. Abbas is a 90 year old mummy, one foot in the grave. Not that relevant much longer.

Marwan Barghouti is a member of Fatah.

The JCPA that you cite is a conservative Israeli think tank…

Edit: You changed the citation.

Sure Abbas doesn’t want him out, but Fatah is not Abbas and Abbas is not Fatah. Fatah is a mass organization.

Easy to pontificate to the Palestinians what they should or shouldn’t do.

Fatah. Marwan Barghouti. Palestinian civil society calling for BDS.

Just because Israel wants the Hamas scarecrow as its opponent doesn’t mean the rest of Palestinian society is irrelevant.

Fatah made a deal with Israel and it stuck to it. Fatah didn’t “collaborate”, it tried to achieve peace and a Palestinian state. It is the only player in the conflict that plays within the parameters set out by the UN.

Fatah is a truly tragic organization in this whole drama. Before you accuse Fatah of anything, you must first condemn Israel and the international community for betraying the shit out of them.

Hamas doesn’t accept the two state solution. They are open to maybe discussing potentially reaching a consensus about the 1967 borders.

If you want to underscore Israeli unreasonableness, you’ve got to point to the PA/Fatah. The PA/Fatah has accepted the two state solution and has stopped violent resistance against Israel. They are in every way an interlocutor for peace. And in return they are being constantly undermined and ratfucked by Israel. Their territory is being annexed, its authority ridiculed, ita legitimacy destroyed.