It is widely acknowledged that external international pressure was one of the major factors in ending the apartheid regime. Therefore, it’s worth considering the impact of raising awareness among international audiences, even those not politically engaged, to put pressure on Israel to end their genocide.
On one hand, you have the discomfort felt by attendees to a live symphony performance in Melbourne, Australia having to listen to the pianist spend 30 seconds introducing the song:
Over the last 10 months, Israel has killed more than one hundred Palestinian journalists. A number of these have been targeted assassinations of prominent journalists as they were travelling in marked press vehicles or wearing their press jackets. The killing of journalists is a war crime in international law, and it is done in an effort to prevent the documentation and broadcasting of war crimes to the world.
In addition to the role of journalists who bear witness, the word Witness in Arabic is **Shaheed, which also means Martyr.
On the other hand, you have the discomfort felt by the victims of war crimes and genocide perpetuated by Israel.
Personally, I don’t think it’s that hard to judge where the cost/benefit analysis goes on that, but of course
it’s a personal value judgment. Perhaps you don’t hold the same values I do, or not to the same degree, but for me, it’s obvious that using your platform to raise awareness and to put pressure on Israel is the right thing to do.
The original point you made was that the musician didn’t do the right thing, and I was explaining why I thought you were wrong. We weren’t talking about whether it was right or wrong for the venue to deplatform him.
I’m happy to talk about that, but I am curious about your thoughts in reaction to my original response
Streisand Effect.
I agree with your opinion, if they are hired and paid to preform at a venue, then that type of work should be free of personal message or bias.
If they had paid for use of the venue(basically a tour or show) then that would be a platform they are welcome to explain their message.
That being said, no idea why your are being down voted, you are having a friendly and respectful conversation here, and even I can see merits in your debate.
Thanks for the response. It’s typical hive mentality. And I don’t mean that in a bad way- but this type of thing is common on social media. its no different here than it was Reddit.
There’s a general theme to the opinions/topics that are considered within the margins of acceptability here. Sadly, nuanced discussion is lost in this to the point that it’s essentially not allowed without ridicule or downvoting it into oblivion.
Anytime someone says they believe in the genocide in gaza I have to wonder what other antisemitic conspiracy theories they believe.
Do you believe ex-KGB agent and neo soviet klepto-fascist President of Russia, Vladimer Putin, when he claims zionist Ukraine is committing genocide against Russians in the Donbas?
Do you believe republican state representative, KKK grand wizard, and christian fascist David Duke when he says zionists are committing genocide against white Americans?
If not, then I don’t know why you believe ex-KGB agent and islamo-fascist president of Palestine Mohammad Abbas when he says zionists are committing genocide against Palestine.
First of all, let’s not conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. I am an ardent opponent of anti-semitism, and while criticism of Israel may well be used as a dog-whistle among anti-semites, that doesn’t mean that all criticism of Israel is inherently anti-semitic. Indeed, I am very happy to know that there are many Jewish people who oppose Israel’s genocide who I can stand with.
As for your question - I don’t believe any individual person’s claims of genocide, but rather consider the evidence. These are the facts as I know them:
Israeli politicians have gone on-record, several times, all the way back to David Ben-Gurion, about their intent to, at the very least, displace, the arab population in and around Israel. In more modern times, the rhetoric is far stronger and very dehumanising.
Israel has continually treated Arab Israelis as, at best, second class citizens, denying them citizenship and property rights, displacing them, causing them to flee in conflict and refusing them the right to return to their homes.
Israel built a wall around Gaza, tightly controlling the flow of people, food, water, medicine and other forms of aid into Gaza. The West bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem have been illegally occupied by Israel since 1971.
A series of conflicts have seen Israeli employing overwhelming and disproportionate military force against Arabs indiscriminately, bombing schools, hospitals, residences, and destroying vital infrastructure, as well as maiming, killing or imprisoning journalists, human rights monitors, aid workers, and so on.
I could go on, but honestly, that’s enough for me to call it like I see it. Israel’s grand ambitions extend at least as far as driving all Arabs out of the territory immediately surrounding Israel, from the banks of the River Jordan to the Mediterranean sea, and possibly further. They are willing to go to any lengths to achieve that goal, including war crimes, crimes against humanity, extrajudicial killings, mass murder, bombing civilians, destroying schools, hospitals, mosques, regardless of who is inside, they’re willing to illegally push people out of their homes, bulldoze Palestinian settlements, steal, kill, and lie about it the whole time they’re doing it.
Israel’s grand ambitions extend at least as far as driving all Arabs out of the territory
This is just projection. The only side who’s goal is to drive people from the land are the people chanting “from the river to the sea palestine will be arab”.
Maybe the billionaire islamo-fascists dictators who rule palestine with an iron fists have incentive to lie about genocide. Do you also believe former Republican state representative and grand wizard of the KKK David Duke when he says that zionists are committing genocide against white people in the Americas? Do you believe Putin when he claims zionist ukraine is committing genocide against russians in teh Donbas?
It is widely acknowledged that external international pressure was one of the major factors in ending the apartheid regime. Therefore, it’s worth considering the impact of raising awareness among international audiences, even those not politically engaged, to put pressure on Israel to end their genocide.
On one hand, you have the discomfort felt by attendees to a live symphony performance in Melbourne, Australia having to listen to the pianist spend 30 seconds introducing the song:
On the other hand, you have the discomfort felt by the victims of war crimes and genocide perpetuated by Israel.
Personally, I don’t think it’s that hard to judge where the cost/benefit analysis goes on that, but of course it’s a personal value judgment. Perhaps you don’t hold the same values I do, or not to the same degree, but for me, it’s obvious that using your platform to raise awareness and to put pressure on Israel is the right thing to do.
The venue made the right move. They canceled him, and now people like you and me are hearing his message.
Everyone wins, right? Or are you not happy unless everyone believes what you believe?
The original point you made was that the musician didn’t do the right thing, and I was explaining why I thought you were wrong. We weren’t talking about whether it was right or wrong for the venue to deplatform him.
I’m happy to talk about that, but I am curious about your thoughts in reaction to my original response
Streisand Effect. I agree with your opinion, if they are hired and paid to preform at a venue, then that type of work should be free of personal message or bias.
If they had paid for use of the venue(basically a tour or show) then that would be a platform they are welcome to explain their message.
That being said, no idea why your are being down voted, you are having a friendly and respectful conversation here, and even I can see merits in your debate.
Thanks for the response. It’s typical hive mentality. And I don’t mean that in a bad way- but this type of thing is common on social media. its no different here than it was Reddit.
There’s a general theme to the opinions/topics that are considered within the margins of acceptability here. Sadly, nuanced discussion is lost in this to the point that it’s essentially not allowed without ridicule or downvoting it into oblivion.
It’s to be expected.
Anytime someone says they believe in the genocide in gaza I have to wonder what other antisemitic conspiracy theories they believe.
Do you believe ex-KGB agent and neo soviet klepto-fascist President of Russia, Vladimer Putin, when he claims zionist Ukraine is committing genocide against Russians in the Donbas?
Do you believe republican state representative, KKK grand wizard, and christian fascist David Duke when he says zionists are committing genocide against white Americans?
If not, then I don’t know why you believe ex-KGB agent and islamo-fascist president of Palestine Mohammad Abbas when he says zionists are committing genocide against Palestine.
First of all, let’s not conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism. I am an ardent opponent of anti-semitism, and while criticism of Israel may well be used as a dog-whistle among anti-semites, that doesn’t mean that all criticism of Israel is inherently anti-semitic. Indeed, I am very happy to know that there are many Jewish people who oppose Israel’s genocide who I can stand with.
As for your question - I don’t believe any individual person’s claims of genocide, but rather consider the evidence. These are the facts as I know them:
I could go on, but honestly, that’s enough for me to call it like I see it. Israel’s grand ambitions extend at least as far as driving all Arabs out of the territory immediately surrounding Israel, from the banks of the River Jordan to the Mediterranean sea, and possibly further. They are willing to go to any lengths to achieve that goal, including war crimes, crimes against humanity, extrajudicial killings, mass murder, bombing civilians, destroying schools, hospitals, mosques, regardless of who is inside, they’re willing to illegally push people out of their homes, bulldoze Palestinian settlements, steal, kill, and lie about it the whole time they’re doing it.
This is just projection. The only side who’s goal is to drive people from the land are the people chanting “from the river to the sea palestine will be arab”.
Just ignored all of my comment to get upset about a rhyming chant, did we?
You have the projection backwards. It’s the genociders who project into that chant.
He even had to change the ending of the rhyme to make it fit his worldview.
The original chant In Arabic is “Min al-mayyeh li-mayyeh, Filastin arabiyyeh” which means “from the water to the water palestine is arab”.
Here are protestors at Columbia University chanting “Filastin arabiyyeh” while waving palestinain flags.
https://x.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1755728329339007011
Let’s be real, a lot of people are saying it’s genocide. I’d say, if Israel stopped shooting journalists, even more people would be saying it.
Maybe the billionaire islamo-fascists dictators who rule palestine with an iron fists have incentive to lie about genocide. Do you also believe former Republican state representative and grand wizard of the KKK David Duke when he says that zionists are committing genocide against white people in the Americas? Do you believe Putin when he claims zionist ukraine is committing genocide against russians in teh Donbas?