no animal produces b12 - it all comes from soil bacteria - which is why grass fed ruminants have b12
but practically no modern day meat farm relies on grass feeding only - even the “grass fed” get the bulk of their calories via feed (and therefore take b12 supplements)
if you’re arguing that we should go back to “the olden days” - meaning no more than 20% of your yearly calories being meat - or eating meat about once a week - then please don’t let me stop you - but at that point I’d much rather take my b12 supplements and not have to needlessly kill animals 🤷♀️
Not eating meat AT ALL is such a novel thing for human gastroevolution that I personally prefer to wait 5k years or so to see the outcomes before commiting. That includes eating diet supplements, who might or might not work.
There have been cultures in certain blue zones like in Okinawa where people traditionally ate very little meat.
Less than 1% of their diet was fish; less than 1% of their diet was meat, and same with dairy and eggs, so it was more than 96% plant-based, and more than 90% whole food plant based—very few processed foods either. And, not just whole food plant-based, but most of their diet was vegetables, and one vegetable in particular—sweet potatoes. The Okinawan diet was centered around purple and orange sweet potatoes
Also adventist vegetarians in California:
The plant-based nature of the diet may trump the caloric restriction, though, since the one population that lives even longer than the Okinawa Japanese don’t just eat a 98% meat-free diet, they eat 100% meat-free. The Adventist vegetarians in California, with perhaps the highest life expectancy of any formally described population.
Adventist vegetarian men and women live to be about 83 and 86, comparable to Okinawan women, but better than Okinawan men. The best of the best were Adventist vegetarians who had healthy lifestyles too, like being exercising nonsmokers, 87 and nearly 90, on average. That’s like 10 to 14 years longer than the general population. Ten to 14 extra years on this Earth from simple lifestyle choices. And, this is happening now, in modern times, whereas Okinawan longevity is now a thing of the past. Okinawa now hosts more than a dozen KFCs. Their saturated fat tripled. They went from eating essentially no cholesterol to a few Big Macs’ worth, tripled their sodium, and are now just as potassium deficient as Americans, getting less than half of the recommended minimum daily intake of 4,700 mg a day. In two generations, Okinawans have gone from the leanest Japanese to the fattest
Ignoring fact, that the study was a self-questionaire, performed 40 years ago, and did not check if the Adventist do continue the healthy habits; with all the goodwill that I can muster:
vegetarians are defined as eating meat no more than once a month, semivegetarians no more than once a week
no vegans
each of life expectancy markers yield statistically same result 1.5-2.5 years: not smoking, medium bmi, exercise, eating nuts, being vegetarian.
I am plant-based myself (the study would mark me as semivegetarian). I am very careful about proclaiming that meat is unhealthy in any dose, because that’s not how humans evolved for the past 300 000 years.
How else do you plan on tracking 34000’s peoples diet for 12 years? Lock them in a lab?
40 years ago
How else would you measure life expectancy accurately? You you must track people until a statistically significant portion of them die.
and did not check if the Adventist do continue the healthy habits
I don’t really understand how statistically this would matter. They had a large enough study group , tracked them for 12 years and isolated the variables.
each of life expectancy markers yield statistically same result 1.5-2.5 years: not smoking, medium bmi, exercise, eating nuts, being vegetarian.
Yeah and I never claimed it was only cuz of not eating meat.
I am very careful about proclaiming that meat is unhealthy in any dose, because that’s not how humans evolved for the past 300 000 years.
Why do you think natural selection optimizes humans for longevity? (living 85 years free of chronic disease). Evolution just optimizes for survival to reproductive age and successful child bearing.
Just because humans can digest meat and relied on it for survival in harsh conditions does not biologically mean a meat-heavy diet is the optimal fuel for a 90-year lifespan in a modern environment with caloric abundance.
How else do you plan on tracking 34000’s peoples diet for 12 years? Lock them in a lab?
Track local shop data what sales there to double check if people are not lying.
You you must track people until a statistically significant portion of them die.
That’s my point - they didn’t repeat the questionaire every x years. They didn’t check if self-reported habits changed. What they in fact measured is “if people in the ~30 have those habits, what is their life expectancy”. Heck, for all we know, at 40 they all became cat eaters or smthing.
Yeah and I never claimed it was only cuz of not eating meat.
That’s how I read your previous comment.
Why do you think natural selection optimizes humans for longevity? (living 85 years free of chronic disease). Evolution just optimizes for survival to reproductive age and successful child bearing.
That’s not what I meant. I meant that our digestive system is optimized for (some) meat intake - see e.g. iron and meat effect on iron absorption (from measly 1% non-heme iron to whooping ~15% non-heme iron absorption if meat is present in the dish).
Non-ruminants including fish also have vitamin b12. I mentioned the old days to show that people then survived eating animals without b12 supplements. But in those days animals roamed more freely. As long as people eat a healthy diet, I’m fine. I just don’t want anyone to be like that girl in an article trending in this community who died from b12 deficiency.
why eat animals that have been fed b12 supplements when you can just take the b12 supplements yourself?
I can get a 1-year supply of B12 for like $3 or something. It’s a solved problem.
Animal meat naturally has b12. In the old days, animals weren’t fed b12 supplement.
no animal produces b12 - it all comes from soil bacteria - which is why grass fed ruminants have b12
but practically no modern day meat farm relies on grass feeding only - even the “grass fed” get the bulk of their calories via feed (and therefore take b12 supplements)
if you’re arguing that we should go back to “the olden days” - meaning no more than 20% of your yearly calories being meat - or eating meat about once a week - then please don’t let me stop you - but at that point I’d much rather take my b12 supplements and not have to needlessly kill animals 🤷♀️
Not eating meat AT ALL is such a novel thing for human gastroevolution that I personally prefer to wait 5k years or so to see the outcomes before commiting. That includes eating diet supplements, who might or might not work.
There have been cultures in certain blue zones like in Okinawa where people traditionally ate very little meat.
Also adventist vegetarians in California:
Source : https://youtu.be/mryzkO5QWWY
Study: www.medicosadventistas.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Ten-years-of-life-Is-it-a-matter-of-choice.pdf
Ignoring fact, that the study was a self-questionaire, performed 40 years ago, and did not check if the Adventist do continue the healthy habits; with all the goodwill that I can muster:
I am plant-based myself (the study would mark me as semivegetarian). I am very careful about proclaiming that meat is unhealthy in any dose, because that’s not how humans evolved for the past 300 000 years.
How else do you plan on tracking 34000’s peoples diet for 12 years? Lock them in a lab?
How else would you measure life expectancy accurately? You you must track people until a statistically significant portion of them die.
I don’t really understand how statistically this would matter. They had a large enough study group , tracked them for 12 years and isolated the variables.
Yeah and I never claimed it was only cuz of not eating meat.
Why do you think natural selection optimizes humans for longevity? (living 85 years free of chronic disease). Evolution just optimizes for survival to reproductive age and successful child bearing.
Just because humans can digest meat and relied on it for survival in harsh conditions does not biologically mean a meat-heavy diet is the optimal fuel for a 90-year lifespan in a modern environment with caloric abundance.
Track local shop data what sales there to double check if people are not lying.
That’s my point - they didn’t repeat the questionaire every x years. They didn’t check if self-reported habits changed. What they in fact measured is “if people in the ~30 have those habits, what is their life expectancy”. Heck, for all we know, at 40 they all became cat eaters or smthing.
That’s how I read your previous comment.
That’s not what I meant. I meant that our digestive system is optimized for (some) meat intake - see e.g. iron and meat effect on iron absorption (from measly 1% non-heme iron to whooping ~15% non-heme iron absorption if meat is present in the dish).
We agree on that, sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Non-ruminants including fish also have vitamin b12. I mentioned the old days to show that people then survived eating animals without b12 supplements. But in those days animals roamed more freely. As long as people eat a healthy diet, I’m fine. I just don’t want anyone to be like that girl in an article trending in this community who died from b12 deficiency.